Episode 3
Pam Henderson-Wilson

Zara: Welcome to With Love from Bougainvillea, a podcast hosted by a very own local students, today being Zara…

Georgie: and Georgie. Hi, I'm Georgie, and I'm running music as well as interviewing our guests.

Zara: Hi, I'm Zara and I'm also interviewing our guests.

Eva: Hi, I'm Eva and I do all the creative works for our covers as well as interviewing our guests.

Shyan: I'm Shyan, and I'm in charge of all the tech, edits and our website.

Zara: The aim of this podcast, With Love From Bougainvillea, is to capture the lives and wisdom of the residents here at the Bougainvillea retirement village. As young people, this is an incredible opportunity to connect with and learn from other, older members of the community. Our goal is to provide advice for a younger audience in an accessible and entertaining manner. Creating a podcast means that for the average working student, they can listen and simultaneously juggle their busy schedule.
Georgie: Today, we are joined by a woman by the name of Pam Henderson-Wilson. Born and raised in South Australia, she's been both in the military and criminal correction - a very interesting combination. Pam is a person of strong values and virtuosity, someone that I've personally learnt so much from in such a short period of time.

Pam: So my name is Pamela Lee Henderson-Wilson. And I was born on the 22nd of August, 1949. So next month, I will be 76.

Zara: Ooh!

Georgie: Happy early birthday!

Pam: So I'm very pleased about that because my mother died when I was 12, when she was 36.

Georgie: Wow.

Pam: And my dad died when he was 72, double her age, but I passed! Unfortunately, one of my siblings didn’t. But anyway, we'll get to that. So, yes, I was born in Adelaide and I was the second child of six siblings.

George: Wow, six.

Pam: So my mum and dad had three boys and three girls.

Zara: That's so good.

 

Pam: It was good. It was lovely.

 

Georgie: A lovely mix.

 

Pam: Yes. Yeah, and three boys and three girls. It was my older brother, then me, then two boys, then two girls. So, yes. And then our mother became unwell with cancer and back then, a long time ago… What am I? Nearly 76 and she was 36, so 40 years ago, they didn't have the treatment. And certainly not in Broken Hill. So we had to move to Adelaide. And because that's where she was, in the hospital. So that was fine.

 

Georgie: Can I ask what type of cancer?

 

Pam: Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma (NHL).

 

Zara: Oh!

 

Georgie: I don't know that one, I'm afraid.

 

Zara: My mum’s a doctor.

 

Pam: Do you know about that?

 

Zara: I don't know about it, but I know of it.

 

Pam: Oh, you know of it? You've heard of it?

 

Zara: Yeah.

 

Pam: So she died of that. Dad died of bowel cancer, and my youngest brother, Peter, died of brain cancer.

 

Zara: Wow. 

 

Pam: So three in the family, of age, have died of cancer, which is not very nice. 

 

Georgie: No. 

 

Leo: Cancer is naughty.

 

Pam: It is naughty, Leo. 

 

Leo: Naughty cancer.

 

*Announcement*
Zara: Who you hear there is Leo, Pam's grandson, who will also be joining in with us today.

 

Pam: Yes. And so then that meant I went to high school in Adelaide and I went to Adelaide Girls, which was a beautiful school. We had a principal, Miss Harris, who was death defying. Every Monday at assembly, which was outside, regardless of the weather we were out there, and she would stand, there was a staircase, a landing, and then the staircase going up to the bell towel where her

office was. And she would stand above us all. And she would say, “And remember, girls, 60% is the pass mark here and even that's not good enough!” And that was her tone.

 

Zara: Oh my gosh!

 

Georgie: That’s scary!

 

Pam: And that was undoubtedly melted into your brain because, you know, you made sure you did your homework and you didn't come to school with ladders in your stockings and you wore your gloves and yeah, holy smokes. It was, it was strict. Georgie: Goodness.

 

Pam: Really strict. I mean, I loved it. I loved my school and I did the work because I used to play table tennis for the church, the school, the state. 

 

Zara: Oh, wow! 

 

Pam: Yes, and I wasn't allowed out at night for competitions if my homework wasn't done because dad was firm, not like Miss Harris, but you know, there were boundaries, there were rules. And you knew what was expected, so you did it. And it's not that difficult.

 

Zara: That's true.

​

Pam: It just becomes…

Zara: Habit?

Pam: It is, yes. And so after I left high school, I didn't go straight to uni. I joined the military.

Georgie: Oh, that's so interesting. Can I ask about the military? How is your experience, like, as a woman? Because there's when some recent article about how- 

Pam: I've seen those.

Georgie: Yeah, about how women in the military are having a horrible time with sexual assault and unfair treatment, sexism. It's like really quite-

Pam: The only problem I had and luckily for me, my older brother, Richard, he took me aside beforehand and he said, “Now, look, you know nothing.” He's being- really looking after me and he meant, “How are you going to protect yourself? How, you know, you don't know anything.” And if it was true, I didn't really know much about life. And so he took me aside and he said, “You know, now, when you walk in the street, as a female, you should have your fist clenched, and if anyone looks like they're going to deliberately, but “accidentally”, walk into you, you thump them.” You know, and he gave me life lessons that I had no clue about, which was fabulous. 

Zara: That’s good.

Georgie: That's lovely. 

Pam: And I needed that, so it could have- but anyway, I didn't know what I wanted to do when I went into the army. And they asked me, you know, you'd go into this selection thing and they said, “What would you like to do? And I said, “Oh, maybe I could do nursing,” and they said, “Do you have a degree in nursing?” And I said, “No…” “Well, you can't be a nurse.” And then I said, I think, “Maybe I'll drive trucks.” They said, “You're not doing that. We're going to send you for an assessment.” So I went for the assessment and they told me what I was going to do. And that was cryptographics.

Leo: This seems pretty detailed. I’m impressed by your memory.

Pam: Oh! Well, it's my life, sweetheart.

Leo: I don't remember that much of my life.

Pam: Oh, dear, you will. 

Zara: When the time comes.

Pam: So, cryptographics: encoding, decoding information and the Vietnam War was on.

Zara: Ohhh.

Pam: So it was a busy job.

Georgie: Wow. 

 

Pam: And it was in Melbourne and our computer, what fits in your little phone, our computer was a five-story building.

 

Georgie: Whoa.

Pam: With people working 24 hours a day keeping everything running between all over the world. That was what our computer was. 

 

Georgie: Can I ask, do they have anything to do with morse code? Like communications? 

 

Pam: Communications does, but for me, I didn't do that side of it. I did- what I did, and we had another code called Murray Code,

but nobody knows about Murray Code. 

 

Zara: No, I can't say I’m familiar with it.

 

Georgie: Yeah same.

 

Pam: No, no. Morse code was tap, tap, tap. Yeah. didn't do that.

 

Georgie: My grandad did that. 

 

Pam: Did he? Well, done. 

 

Georgie: He taught me a bit and I've completely forgotten.

 

Pam: And when you got married back then, when you got married and you were in the army and you were female, you had to leave. And it was the same in the banks for women. You worked in the bank and you got married-

 

Zara: You leave and come back? 

 

Pam: No, you’re gone. 

 

Zara: Woah.

 

Georgie: When was that a rule up until?

 

Pam: '72?

 

Georgie: Wow. That late?

 

Pam: Yes. Yes! 

 

Georgie: That’s ins- I actually didn't know that. 

 

Zara: I did not know that at all. 

 

Pam: A lot of people, younger people, don't realise - they think everything's equal, but it's even not properly equal now. 

 

Zara and Georgie: Yeah. 

 

Pam: But back then it was “Forget it”. And in Broken Hill, everybody had to get the paper. If you worked, you got the paper, the newspaper, the Daily Barrier, it was called. But if there were five people in your house working, you got five of them. That was the union, up there at that time.

 

Georgie: Hey the more newspapers the merrier!

 

Zara: Five newspapers everyday? What would you do when you have stacks of them?

 

Pam: Well, you know, you'd use it for when you lit the fire in winter. But that was just how things were. And you couldn't change it back then, but we luckily moved away from Broken Hill. Not that I, I mean, I, still have friends up there, but- and family. But yeah, I'm glad I sort of went to the city and saw the world with the military. 

 

Zara: That's cool. 

 

Pam: Yes, it was. And I had a posting to London, to Australia House, doing that same job, and that was good too. 

 

Georgie: So when you got married, did you have to leave the military? 

 

Pam: Yes, I did. 

 

Georgie: How long until that happened?

 

Pam: I was- it was five years full time and then I was out and then I did reserve working. And then I went to uni and then I divorced

him because he was cheating and lying. Yes.

 

Zara: Oh my God. 

 

Pam: I know. It's dreadful. But anyway, sorry. And then I went to uni. 

 

Georgie: Oh. What did you study? 

 

Pam: Social work. 

 

Georgie: Oh, very nice. 

 

Pam: And after I got that degree, I went and worked with criminals. 

 

Georgie and Zara: Wow. 

 

Pam: Yes, I do- I know! Do I look like I work with criminals? And at the military? I don't know what you're supposed to look like. Pardon.

 

Zara: I can't say based off first impressions!

 

Pam: No. So yeah that was good. So I went to the University of South Australia and worked with criminals in Port Augusta trying to

rehabilitate them. 

 

Georgie: Did you ever do psychology with them?

 

Pam: Oh, wait. How did your social work degree is psychology

 

Georgie: Oh, wow. I didn't know that, did you know that? That's so interesting.

 

Zara: So interesting.

 

Georgie: Was it much, like drug like rehab or…?

 

Pam: Drug rehab? Not then.

 

Georgie: Oh, okay. 

 

Pam: No, it was just armed robbery, sexual. A lot of family violence. I had a lot of sexual predators on my caseload, a lot. And one of them, Rodney, was his name. Anyway, David, who was our boss, he was fabulous, just the best. And he said to me, “We've got to cull you, you know, you've got too many.” And he decided this one person might be able to go. He went straight down to the local kindergarten and was in jail within about two hours. 

 

Zara: The local kindergarten school? 

 

Pam: Yeah. It is. But the thing with that fellow was, because of what he'd done previously, his family didn't like him. He had no

friends so he couldn't go to the pub and have a beer with the boys or anything because nobody- I was the only person he actually had a conversation with. 

 

Zara: Yeah.

 

Pam: And that was taken away from him. So he's going to get it back, wasn't he? 

 

Zara: Yeah. 

 

Pam: So that's what he did. 

 

Zara: Oh. So he did it intentionally to go-

 

Pam: Absolutely. The first time I saw him, he sat there like this for the entire hour and said nothing. And I went out and I got the local Port Augustine Times or News or whatever it was called. I gave it to him and I said, “Right. Next week you will come here and you will have read something in this and you will discuss it with me.” I said, “Look.” And he did it. And then I knew he could talk because he had this one faked tear that dropped off his face in that one hour and I said to the psych, “What's going on there?” And he said, “Look, if people say or act like they're crying, if there's no snot it's not, it's not real.” And from that day on, anyone who's pretend crying, I'd say, “Stop your fake crying.” Because if there's no snot to me, it doesn't count. But in South Australia, Correctional Services was about rehabilitation. Now, I was married again and we got a posting overnight to Wollongong with the Steelworks.

 

Georgie: Wongongong, Wongong's beautiful.

 

Pam: It is.

 

Georgie: I really like it down there.

 

Pam: But I went to work with correctional services, but they were punitive. It was disgusting. That office was the worst place I'd ever worked in.

 

Georgie: In terms of like culture?

 

Pam: The manager was dreadful. A woman. Dreadful. She knew Barney, one of them, used to take the car and go down to the beach and sleep. Oh, yeah. And one of the women, she knew she worked in our office, but she had to spend time in court often, was having it off with someone in the court when she was married with two little boys. And we had Kris Kringle for Christmas and one of the ladies who was on the staff, Bronda, she was gay. I mean, by that stage, she was probably 50, 52, round about that. One of the young, stupid girls for her, Kris got her, for Kris Kringle and bought her a dildo. 

 

Zara: Oh!

 

Pam: And that was filmed. And everybody laughed. I didn't think it was funny at all. That's disgusting. 

 

Georgie: That is homophobia I fear. 

 

Pam: That's Anyway. And then the manager, because not everybody was up there, showed it at the next meeting.

 

Zara: As you do. 

 

Pam: And I just had, I had no respect for her whatsoever. None. Anyways, so I'd been there about a year and I said, I applied for two weeks leave. 

 

Georgie: Yeah. 

 

Pam: And on the Friday when I was to go on the leave, I went into her and I said, “I'm changing my mind about the leave.” And

she looked at me and I said, “Yes, you can take it as resignation. 

 

Georgie: Good on you.

 

Pam: And she asked me why, I told her.

 

Zara: There's no way she said, why? When people are acting like that.

 

Pam: What a stupid question to ask. So I told them all that I've said, why would I work there? 

 

Georgie: What a horrible work environment. 

 

Pam: Yes. Shocking. And so what happened then after I left there, that's right. I went to work in a hospital. Social worker on a ward, a rehab hospital. 

 

Georgie: Very nice. 

 

Pam: A lot less stressful. A lot less stressful than all those pedophiles. And you know, I mean. I used to do- pardon? 

 

Georgie: Still in Woolangong? 

 

Pam: Yes. I used to do home visits and I had to go to Kiama one day to meet a fellow who was a paedophile and bestiality. Do you know what that is? 

 

Zara: Yeah. 

 

Georgie: Do you want to explain? 

 

Pam: Sex with animals. 

 

Georgie: Wow. 

 

Pam: And so yes, I went to- he was meant to be living with his brother and sister-in-law and I went there and asked to see him.

 

Georgie: And it was just him?

 

Pam: He wasn't there.

 

Zara: Oh. 

 

Georgie: Oh. 

 

Pam: And he was not to be around children, obviously. And anyway, I said, “So where is he?” And that they weren't telling. I said, “That's okay, I'll go to the car and I'll ring the police and they can come up and they can have a chat with you.” And they said, “Oh, he's down the road. Number 35.” They didn't want police cars turning up at their house. And he had moved in with a woman with two children and a dog. 

 

Georgie: Which I'm guessing he was not allowed to do.

 

Pam: None of it, and the woman had no clue. 

 

Georgie: Oh, my goodness. 

 

Pam: And he, at the time that I went there, he was out walking the dog. And I saw the photo of the dog, which, as I was leaving, I mentioned to her, and I said, “Do you have any idea who he is? Do you have any idea of his history?” I told her I was from Correctional Services, showed her my stuff. She just was shocked. I said, "Does he bathroom children? Does he dress your children?” “Yes.”

 

Georgie: It's like chills. 

 

Pam: It's dreadful. So anyway, as I was leaving, I said, “I see you have a picture of a dog. Do you have a dog?” She said, “Yes.” I said, “Okay.” And I said, “Okay, you'll be hearing- he'll be hearing from us and which he did.” And by the time I got back from Kyama to Wongong to the office, they said my phone just kept ringing and ringing and it was her. And her question was, “Was the question about having a dog significant?” I said, “Yes, it is." And I said, “But your children are far more important than your dog.” But your dog's important, but, you know, prioritise. Anyway, he had to go back to jail. Choices. 

 

Zara: And she didn't know at all?

 

Pam: She knew nothing.

 

Georgie: So did it end up that he was assaulting the children? 

 

Pam: That I don't know. I don't know him. But he was breaking the conditions. 

 

Georgie: Yeah breaking the law and his conditions.

 

Pam: So he was locked up. Best place for him. So, yes, I went into jails, Civil Water, Long Bay, all sorts of jails. But another one of mine came out of jail and I was his paration officer and he was not to live near a school. And he did. He rented a place right opposite - a school in Kindy. And I did my first home visit there and I said, well, you won't be staying here. So, back to jail. 

 

Zara: Sometimes some people aren't the safest around some little kids.

 

Pam: No, they're not safe. And it's family as much as strangers, which was something I had to learn. I didn't realise that. But anyway, I learned. I learned a lot. 

 

Georgie: Was there any patterns that you saw in all of your cases? 

 

Pam: No, because they had different backgrounds. They were weren't necessarily poor people. They weren't necessarily Australian white people. It could be any nationality. Oh, one of the funny things at Port Augusta, we had- they'd have to come in for meetings, you know, group meetings and we'd have psychiatrists and whatever talking to them, police as well. And we'd have to send the bus out to find them under the bridges and wherever they'd slept the night before and they wouldn't get on the bus if we weren't providing pizza and Coca-Cola. 

 

Georgie: What a good enticement. 

 

Zara: I mean you have me sold.

 

Pam: That's sort of like their breakfast and lunch. So pizza and Coke in Coca-Cola, not Coke. God help me. You've really got to

watch your language.

 

Georgie: We know what you meant. 

 

Pam: Yes. But that was that to me, was like, really? Surely they should be responsible to come in, but, no, they would- it kind of

wasn't quite a bribe. And no one in the office was upset about feeding them. You wanted their life to get better. And that really was the mentality in South Australia with Correctional Services. It was just rehabilitate, rehabilitate. 

 

Georgie: Is it the same across the nation or was that just in SA? 

 

Pam: When I came to New South Wales, it was punitive. It was just punishment, it was just awful. I didn't like it, and I was actually

pleased to leave. 

 

Georgie: Is it weird being back here? 

 

Pam: In New South Wales? No. No… Because my daughter is in Grosvenor Street just here. 

 

Georgie: Oh, yeah. 

 

Pam: And Leo and his sister Olympia and Ben, so, no. It's lovely. Yeah. And when I first came here, I was still driving and I was doing school runs and pickups and things like that. But my eyes have taken a turn for the worse. I'm getting injections into my eyeballs. 

 

Georgie: Like vision wise? 

 

Pam: Yes, so I can no longer drive. And so now the only really things I can do is walk with them to drama classes and music classes.

 

Georgie: Drama!

 

Pam: Yeah. 

 

Zara: And music!

 

Pam: And music, yeah… Yeah. No, Leo plays piano, drums-

 

Leo: And drums! And I’m going to get a bass guitar

 

Georgie: Drums is a good one, keep drums. 

 

Pam: Oh. It's too big for you, but big enough for Ben. He's lovely. And viola you play at school. 

 

Georgie: Ooo multi-instrumental? 

 

Leo: -I'm not really the best anyway. 

 

Pam: That's okay.

 

Leo: I did a solo in year four and i did ‘Ode to Joy’. It was pretty good. 

 

Georgie: Oh, Ode to Joy is great!

 

Pam: I saw him in concert last Saturday. It was fabulous playing piano. 

 

Georgie: So many different instruments. 

 

Zara: We all come for a watch. 

 

Georgie: We should.

 

Pam: And his sister plays, she plays piano, but trombone. Oh, so heavy. 

 

Georgie: Yeah. It's like an arm workout. 

 

Zara: And then you're also like, like, yeah. My God. 

 

Leo: I wanted to play trombone one time. 

 

Pam: You do? 

 

Leo: But I never actually got to try it. 

 

Zara: Oh. 

 

Pam: And they both do singing and drum, but not team sports or anything like creativity. 

 

Leo: I’m not sporty.

 

Georgie: It's okay. 

 

Pam: So, yeah, keep going. So what was I going to say? So what else? What was the next question? 

 

Georgie: Oh, like, how did it impact you and did you have any, like, life changing cases? 

 

Pam: No. One, which really, the woman, the mother, he was an armed rob robber. And they lived in an area just above Wollongong, whether there's you go over a little bridge and there's only four streets and it's kind of exclusive. Yes. And I was with my husband, second husband, at a function at Jamberoo and his boss said to me, “Oh, so what do you do?” And I said, “Oh, I work with Correctional Services. And he said, “Oh,” he lived up in that area too. And he said, “Oh, you wouldn't be up near me then.” I'd been there that day, but I couldn't tell him. Because of confidentiality. But when I got there and knocked on the door, the mother answered. And she said, “What kind of car have you got? Has it got any markings?” And she was really, like, a snob, an absolute snob. And I said-

 

Georgie: Why did she ask?

 

Pam: She didn't want something that said ‘Department of Correctionational Services’ parked out the front of her house. 

 

Zara: Oh. 

 

Pam: No, she was off her tree. Seriously. But anyway, she eventually thought that the car was alright and I couldn't speak with her

son. And I had to say to her, “Look, if you go to carry on, I'll leave and I'll put a report in that I wasn't able to see him.” And she thought, then, I've got to pull myself together. But you had to be able to be assertive without being rude. Yeah, which is good training. 

 

Zara: Yeah, like life skills. 

 

Pam: I mean, yes, you need to be, as females, you need to be assertive, but not rude, not rude. And boys need to be assertive, but not rude too. And kind, have values, have integrity, all of those things. So, no, I don't think I really, there was any one case. They were all criminals. 

 

Georgie: What kind of advice would you give to someone going into that field? 

 

Pam: Learn all that you possibly can. Learn from the people who have been there longer than you, learn from the psychiatrists, very good source of information. Learn. Yeah, because when you go there, you don't know anything. It’s like when I was joining up and my brother told me I knew nothing. Same thing when you, yeah, and you don't! And what you read, learned in a book at uni, in theory, when you come to the practice of it, it's like, oh-

 

Georgie: It's very different. 

 

Pam: This person, like when you go into the jail, you'd have two guards with you who stood outside the door while you interviewed the person. And the person was put furthest from the door and you were closest to the door. There was protocol. It was, yeah. But, you know, it was work. 

 

Georgie: With that statement about learning from your mentors, did you have a mentor in particular that helped you out a lot? 

 

Pam: Just the psychiatrist in South of Australia, not New South Wales, no. So, oh, you asked about parents. 

 

Georgie: Oh, yeah, we did yeah. 

 

Pam: Yes. 

 

Georgie: Do you want to talk about your parents? 

 

Pam: Yeah, my mum and dad were lovely. My dad was some fun. He used to sing to our mother, which was really nice. And he played tricks and there were six children, so if we were niggling in each other, he would say, “Right, you, go and weed that garden. You, go and weed that garden and you sweep all paths.”

 

Georgie: Chores is a way to settle family disputes!

 

Pam: Absolutely. And that way, we knew if we were carrying on and being stupid, we were going to have to do something. So we learned to not do that. And then, of course, you know, I was 12 when my mother died, but my younger sister was five. And so dad, we were in Adelaide, but we had to have a live-in housekeeper. Mrs. Crilli was her name. And so, yeah, she had to run the house, get us all to school and make all the school lunches and do all the washing and clean stuff. That's what a wife would do, but she was paid and had board, of course, to live with us. But yeah, it's very sad. And when going to high school, because I was 12, I just felt older, not having a mother. I just really felt odd. There was no one else in my class who didn't have a mother and yeah, didn't like it at all. And Mrs. Crilli was no form of motherhood. Yeah. Yes. She was not, not her. So yeah, that was a bit ordinary. 

 

Georgie: Did your classmates know about your mother passing? 

 

Pam: Yeah, my friends did. So I think just growing up with a father who really respected our mom and who treaded girls and boys, both of us well and was fun, I think we were fortunate, really fortunate. Obviously, you know, thought mum was wonderful, as we all did. But I think in life, I can't understand the people who wake up every day thinking, what can I do today to be mean, be horrible? 

 

Zara: Yeah. 

 

Pam: Why don't you wake up and take a deep breath and be grateful you're alive and be grateful you've got grandchildren and children and, you know, you're surrounded by mostly nice people and you've got a roof over your head. Be grateful, be kindly thoughtful, have values, have integrity, those things, that's what carries you through. And it's not how you look, it's what's inside that matters. Body image is no big deal as I'm concerned, not skin colour, not anything. It's what's going on in your heart and being able to articulate that. So, yeah. 

 

Georgie: Is there any advice that you give to your younger self that you-?

 

Zara: -would tell to your younger self or to other people,?

 

Pam: For me, because I divorced two husbands for the same reasons, it would be: be more aware of the red flags because

obviously, as my brothers have told me, you've got no clue. And then being right, and that's why I'd never do it again. Just be more aware of red flags. Don't necessarily believe everything you're told because it's not going to necessarily be true. 

 

Georgie: Are there any red flags that you'd seen that you wish that you would have acknowledged? 

 

Pam: Well, no, I don't think I saw them. And it was that people told me what the men were doing. 

 

Georgie: Right. 

 

Pam: I was home, we were supposed to go to a hunt club, you know, a hunt club?

 

Zara: A horseback club? Oh, yes, yeah. 

 

Pam: Hunt club. Yeah. Because we had horses. He, what happened? Something happened and my daughter was off being cared for and I came back from dropping her there and I had a hint of something and I said to him, “I'm not going.” -to the function. And then I looked at him and I said, “In fact, I'm not going anywhere with you ever again.”
Zara: Good on you. 

 

Georgie: Mic drop!

 

Zara: I know. 

 

Pam: And he made a comment which I won't repeat just now, but- and then he went off to the function. Yes. Got all dressed up and went off and the phone rang. It was our friend, neighbour up the road, Annie, and she said, “Oh, how are you, Pammy? Just ringing to see if you and John would like to come to a dinner at our house in two weeks time, blah, blah.” And I said, “Annie, you can have him or you can have me, but you can't have both. I've told him tonight.” She said, “Oh, oh, we never approved of what he was doing.” 

 

Georgie: Oh, a good friend. 

 

Zara: What he was doing? 

 

Pam: Yes, they knew. Oh, yeah, they knew what he was doing. 

 

Zara: And they didn't tell you?

 

Pam: That was how I found out from them. Yes. 

 

Zara: So they thought that you knew and you just like kind of kept it under the-

 

Georgie: Did you ever find out their reasoning? Did they think it was none of their business? 

 

Pam: Well, it was even worse than that because a few months later, Annie left her husband, Peter. And she moved from, we were in the country. She moved down to the beach at Mount Martha, which was lovely. And she, anyway, he couldn't cope with the fact that she knew what he'd been up to, and he shot himself. 

 

Georgie: Wow. 

 

Pam: In the children's bathroom, and because she hadn't been able to get in contact with him, she thought she'd better go up and found that, the children actually found him. 
Georgie: Oh, that's horrible. 

 

Zara: How old?

 

Georgie: How, yeah. 

 

Pam: Oh, they were little. 10, 8. 

 

Georgie: Oh, my goodness.

 

Pam: But that's, you know, that's just selfish. 

 

Georgie: Selfish, yeah. 

 

Pam: Yeah. Extremely selfish. 

 

Georgie: To do that to your own children? That’s insane. Goodness. 

 

Zara: He couldn't cope with something that he had done that she found out about. 

 

Pam: Exactly. And she left him. And he begged her to marry him that, absolutely, but what for when you're going to go and cheat? 

 

Georgie and Zara: Yeah. 

 

Pam: I mean, cheating men are despicable, disgusting pigs. So yes. There's- so red flags. Just, you know, I just had colour blindness, I think. 

 

Zara: You just had your rose colour glasses on. 

 

Pam: Yeah, maybe a bit stupid. 

 

Georgie: How was your trust after that? I mean, having two husbands. 

 

Pam: Negligent. Negligible, really. Yeah. No. So I think family values, you know, having values, having boundaries, being assertive, is really, really important.

 

Zara: Yeah. 

 

Georgie: Do you think you got that value from the military or maybe your brother? 

 

Pam: I started it. Just saying, look at you. It's a bit sad. 

 

Leo: Say what? 

 

Pam: Oh he didn't think I knew anything about living in cities or because I came from Adelaide to Sydney for recruit training. And I, no. He was right. But all along I've learned bits and some things I've had to learn the hard way and I think that's normal. But yeah, I think, what I treasure is my family and people who have integrity. It's really important. Really. 

 

Georgie: You're such a strong woman. 

 

Pam: You think so? 

 

Georgie: Oh, goodness, yeah. 

 

Zara: Are you kidding me?

 

Georgie: 100%

 

Pam: I'm just your average normal person. 

 

Georgie: It's so inspiring. I think, like, as a young woman as well, like, I've had my fair few run-ins and I'm sure Zara has too. And t

be able to set your boundaries and stick with them is incredibly strong it’s something that I'm sure we're still learning. 

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Pam: But you can do it. 

 

Georgie: I'd like to think so.

 

Pam: As long as you're not rude, I think, you know, that brings it down. Yeah. It sort of destroys it. 

 

Georgie: Like undermines your message. 

 

Pam: Exactly. So no. Oh, I'm sure you-

 

Zara: Wonder Woman over here. 

 

Pam: Pardon?

 

Zara: Wonder Woman. Yes!

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Pam: No. 

 

Georgie: So beautiful.

 

Zara: Yeah. 

 

Georgie: Very strong, very clever. 

 

Pam: No, I’m just normal. That's what I think. 

 

Georgie: What we would like to be normalised. 

 

Pam: Yes, yes. But a few weeks back, oh, maybe a couple of months now, Leo and Olympia were here and we were in the sitting

room and Olympia's stroking my heart and said, "Grandma, Grandma, I know you're elderly. And Grandma, I know that one day you're going to die. And I just want you to know, Grandma, I've been very, very sad.” And I thought, that's beautiful. This one said, “Indeed.” 

 

Georgie: He’s quite the posh British-man at his heart. 

 

Pam and Zara: Indeed. 

 

Pam: But I thought it was wonderful because when we grew up, we were not allowed to talk about death. Never. 

 

Georgie: Yeah. 

 

Zara: It's more like a taboo-

 

Georgie: Yeah.

 

Pam: But they can and do it with respect and thoughtfulness and kindness and just- I was impressed. I thought they can talk about death. This is beautiful. And around here, a lot of people do die. And Shirley, our friend, our lovely friend Shirley, was 96 and she died. And the children who to always run in and give her big hugs and say she loved them and they loved her. And she died, she fell over and hit her head and died. And so that was sad. 

 

Georgie: 96 is a good age to get to though. 

 

Pam: Oh, there’s a few here over 100.

 

Zara: Really? 

 

Pam: Oh, 102, yeah. 

 

Georgie: Oh, I didn't know that. 

 

Pam: Yeah. 

 

Zara: Oh!

 

Pam: I'm a spring chicken round here! Oh, you're in kindergarten. It's absolutely- no seriously. That's how they look at you! But yeah, no, it's really good. But well, I've travelled a lot, you know, I've both with the military, to every state in Australia. which I think it's a big country… I mean, it's not like little old England, isn't it? Which would fit in Victoria. And you go to England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales and you know, you've done the four countries and that's the UK. But no, I travel if you can travel. 

 

Georgie: But thank you so much. 

 

Pam: That's a pleasure! Thank you. I'm sorry we had 4,000 interruptions! 

 

Zara: No, oh my God. I got to meet two dogs like-

 

Georgie: I'm so down!

 

Pam: Sunny and O'Reilly. 

 

Zara: And Oreos! 

 

Georgie: Thank you so, so much for your time- 

 

Pam: It's a pleasure. 

 

Georgie: And your words have, like, they mean so much to us. I think we've learned a lot, haven't we? 

 

Zara: Yeah. Definitely. 

 

Georgie: I mean, I'm taking notes! 

 

Zara: I'll listen to this one back! Assertive but not rude. 

 

Georgie: Assertive but not rude. I've definitely learnt that.

 

Zara: Boundaries. Boundaries. 

 

Pam: And boundaries. Yes. And integrity. 

 

Zara: Yes. Values.

 

Pam: And kindness.

 

Georgie: Yes, kindness. And knowing your values. 

 

Pam: And appreciate your siblings if you have any…

 

Georgie: And that is all for us today. Thank you so, so much for listening and make sure to check out our website, where you can

find the transcript and all our episodes to come. 

 

Zara: Quick shout out to our wonderful team, Shyan for all our editing, Eva for design  and my co-host today Georgie. 

 

Georgie and Zara: With Love, From Bougainvillea. Mwah!

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